I or WE can change the world, one person at a time... But I or WE will be mucho appreciative to anyone willing to help change the world one person at time.
I've finally talked Jay into contributing in GS... but only on this this thread for the time being.
BUT there's nothing Jay can say that will hit home and be more believable that the advice from the veterans..... [MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION] [MENTION=12475]Mike[/MENTION] [MENTION=20933]LJay[/MENTION] [MENTION=21461]Steve[/MENTION] and I know I'm leaving out more than half a dozen but that's just because you have screen names like @Chinifilloptous or @hotguybfqzz2789042
All I want out of this thread is US giving solid advice to guys in relationship drama..........and it would be nice not to have to do it all myself... or have my hubby do it....
There's a load of guys in GaySpeak who give advice and counseling that they ought to be charging for......
Now marriages are legal for ""US"".... there's going to be a high level of all sorts of dysfunctional bullshit passing for marriages. Getting a marriage is pretty simple now...... But getting a license doesn't make it a relationship...... and that is a distinction that's going to be lost on many.....
Come on guys........ step up and let's do what needs to be done.
Let's do what we can to help this work out good........
Virge, I saw an article about these a couple of days ago and immediately wondered what Jay might think of them. could you please ask him if he knows of Mood GYM and/or my Compass and, if so, to comment on them. They seem quite interesting. I am sure there are limits, but the wider accessibility to mental health help could be very exciting
BTW, [MENTION=21084]Virge[/MENTION], in another thread you said something that caught my attention. Forget which thread and exactly how you worded it but basically you were accepting that you had in some way contributed to Jay's infidelity. You didn't elaborate but I'm curious (not asking you to write about that here if you aren't of a mind to) because it is RARE that I see anyone in a relationship fully OWN that whatever goes wrong, it takes TWO to TANGLE. Everyone puts something into the pot.
If guys understood this, relationships, I think, would work out more often than not.
I have a few theories about gay dating and relationships...
Some might think these views to be outlandish , progressive or just off the wall...
I'll get my thoughts together and post soon.
[MENTION=21084]Virge[/MENTION]
I agree with Mike. It seems to me that both you and Jay have done the most responsible thing two people in a relationship can do: Move past the pain, recognize your own role in the problem, empathize with your partner while attempting to understand his point of view, and honestly talk about the future and the direction of your relationship. You made the necessary adjustments and moved forward and didn't dwell in anger over the past.
The two of you have been smart enough to make wise decisions, no matter how difficult or awkward those conversations must have been. It takes two people to make a relationship work well.
The advice I give people stems from thirty years of partnership with Mark. It didn't take a piece of paper stating our relationship was legal for us to figure out that it had to be flexible, that we had to figure out not only the problems and their sources, but how to fix those problems with solutions each of us could live with. Above all else we had to be honest with each other even if the honesty stung sometimes. If all we had was a marriage certificate we wouldn't have lasted as a couple without knowing that neither one of us was perfect and that each of us would make mistakes. Its how you deal with the problems that matter in a successful pairing.
Yes, trust is a big ingredient to us. The beginning of trust is unconditional honesty with each other. But that trust also includes the fact that we recognize that each of us screw up from time to time and that sometimes we need to stop and figure out what went wrong. We're only human after all. (My god, I didn't just quote Billy Joel lyrics did I? ) The trust is implicit that we go through these rough patches with as much love, tenderness, honesty, and willingness to listen to each other as we possibly can.
Both of us know that if we approach our problems from the perspective of anger solutions are going to be more difficult and often less successful. This is not to say that we have never been "pissy" with one another on occasion. Even then the more we stick to talking out our problems the more we both calm down and begin to understand each other, finally arriving at a solution with which we both can abide. It didn't take long for us to figure out that if we treated each other with dignity and respect that we would solve misunderstandings and arrive at workable solutions faster and with less drama.
The problem I see most often with young people in relationships is that they don't recognize that the other person is human and therefore fallible. Mistakes will be made. It's how you deal with the mistakes that make a relationship ...a marriage... successful. That cotton candy, sugar pie honey bunch, love is a many splendored thing at the beginning of "true love" doesn't last forever. Young couples have to remember that words said in anger, especially those said simply to hurt the other person, are not going to help resolve anything. You can't just stomp your foot and have it your way or the highway. That's not a relationship, its a dictatorship. Instant solutions to problems are fairly rare in my experience.
The bottom line is that relationships are work, and they're only as good as the amount of time each person spends to make them work.
Post Script: Yes, Mark and will eventually get married. Not for any religious reason, but merely for all the legal rights other married couples are provided. We just don't want to rush into anything. We've only been together for three decades now. .:biggrin:
Ok, so I can't exactly wear white. Or even off white. Hell, sepia is even out. Does anyone know if Donna Karan makes wedding dresses in blood red Jezebel?
(cue The Carpenters) .
JayL here.
Virge is already down for the night. Starting this thread he may have put the wagon ahead of the horse a bit but we can work around that. The first thing is getting the admin to set up a folder like the way games are set up here so they show up in the board. In there we can orderly compile information, essays etc regarding relationships we can quickly hyperlink and not have to repeat the same information.
What gave me the idea was I been reading all of Virgie's threads and comment the past few months and see how often he repeats the same rock solid advice on five things. The sad part about that is none of the repeats are ever as good as the original.
I'll contact the admin and see if they'll do a folder called RELATIONSHIP BUILDING and we can get started on this. From my POV it will be a good thing for them because people like myself can refer gay clients directly to the links here in gayspeak and maybe increase membership here.
LJay Wrote:Virge, I saw an article about these a couple of days ago and immediately wondered what Jay might think of them. could you please ask him if he knows of Mood GYM and/or my Compass and, if so, to comment on them. They seem quite interesting. I am sure there are limits, but the wider accessibility to mental health help could be very exciting
Hi LJay.
JayL here.
Mister you just stole half my thunder. LOL. For sure I know about MoodGYM & myCOMPASS! I've been working with them both since they began. Fairly half my clients are referred to MoodG and everyone under 20 is required to do MyComp. Both are great tools for therapists/psychologists to give to patients. There's no one who won't benefit from joining. I had to do do a program about them here in SD back a while to get mental health professionals up on them.
For adults in MoodG vs those not there's a noticeable difference in progress. It's always best to enable clients to take control of their problems, learn to solve or remedy them when possible. For myComp: it's gone viral. One teen finding help there tells 500 and bada bing bada boom.
Maybe you might want to join MoodG and give a critique of it once we set up a folder like I mentioned up above.
MikeW Wrote:WELL, FWIW, I'm game.
BTW, [MENTION=21084]Virge[/MENTION], in another thread you said something that caught my attention. Forget which thread and exactly how you worded it but basically you were accepting that you had in some way contributed to Jay's infidelity. You didn't elaborate but I'm curious (not asking you to write about that here if you aren't of a mind to) because it is RARE that I see anyone in a relationship fully OWN that whatever goes wrong, it takes TWO to TANGLE. Everyone puts something into the pot.
If guys understood this, relationships, I think, would work out more often than not.
Hiya Mike. I read some of your comments and picture you taking hours doing them. Well thought out, composed and insight filled.
You asking about my infidelity is perfect timing. That's what led to us wanting to start this project. What we learned in recovering from it needs to be shared.
A question for ya. Is it safe to say here on this forum there's 6 threads per month about infidelity? After how Virgie and I survived and grew stronger after my infidelity all conventional advice is up for debate. He gets all the credit on that. He set the terms on the eight week hiatus for me moving out, starting back at dating and rebuilding. He figured out what created the situation for my infidelity and solved it. It opened the door for a level of honesty and intimacy.
Before I came here I was cognizant that Virgie would be gone three or four days of a week. I'd never experienced it. It wasn't what I wanted or imagined life here would be like. Complaining about his time away building his business would have alienated him and expanded my emotional needs on him and created a conflict so I said nothing. Then someone paid me attention and I wanted/needed attention and infidelity ensued.
There was no way of expressing my resentment for Virgie's absences without being a feeling like a harridan. I held it in but the void created loneliness. You know the rest.
The important thing is our relationship survived it and became stronger because of it. We want to help others do the same.
Anocxu Wrote:I have a few theories about gay dating and relationships...
Some might think these views to be outlandish , progressive or just off the wall...
I'll get my thoughts together and post soon.
Start a convo on your theories and don't worry much about what people think. That opens debates to sharpen minds and refines theory. Virgie & I spent most the morning debating parenting techniques & theories. We only agreed Oneida Stirpiculture is out of the question.
MikeW Wrote:If guys understood this, relationships, I think, would work out more often than not.
^
Signing off I realized I forgot to comment on the most important thing you said (above)
That's precisely what this is about. Now marriage is legal there's going to a rush of ill prepared blokes getting wed. Back in the nineties in Australia nearly the same happened when Gays started adopting kids. Less than one in twenty was qualified and became a parent. Marriage there is still a ways off.
Glad to meet you. Thirty years? Men like you and Mark need to step forward and help set examples for youngers. There's a dire need for relationship support networks now marriages are legal for gays in the US. Can you imagine five years down the road if stats show we're better at it than heteros?
Tomorrow I'll be talking with local groups, ministers & Register of Deeds where licenses are issued to begin pre-marriage counseling and start developing support groups. If any of you know gay mental health professionals it would might be a good idea to get their assistance starting support groups for the same.
06-29-2015, 02:58 PM (Edited 06-29-2015, 03:10 PM by MikeW.)
Anonymous Wrote:... There's a dire need for relationship support networks now marriages are legal for gays in the US. ...
First of all [MENTION=21041]Jay[/MENTION]L, why are you posting anonymously? Uncheck that little box for heaven's sake!
There's been a "dire need" for relationship support among gay men for decades. To my mind, that we can now marry only underscores that need, but the need has always existed.
IN SOME WAYS I suspect "being married" will make things even MORE difficult. Although marriage is essentially a contract between two people that gives them rights and privileges unmarried people don't have, *psychologically* the mind-set of "being married" causes us to see ourselves and be seen by others in a different light.
This can get problematic when it reinforces social norms and roles operating pre-consciously within the individuals comprising the marriage. IOW, for example, FIDELITY is *assumed* to be a fundamental aspect of "marriage"... but is it? Is there a law that says married couples MUST be sexually monogamous? I don't believe there is...
So, if I enter into a marriage with the assumption that this will make my relationship monogamous without really being clear in myself (and with my partner) that this is, in fact, what I want -- or, conversely, what I do NOT want -- then we already have a setup for disaster. (ETA: And i t is more about what I/we are actually READY for, not just what we think we want.)
Back in the late 80s, early 90s, when I was with my first partner, we were apart of an on-going peer-facilitated gay couple's support group. The composition of the group changed somewhat through the seven years we were members BUT, that said, SEVEN of the original NINE couples comprising the group were still together seven years after it started. We all agreed that one of the reasons this was the case was BECAUSE the group existed. In other words, most of us felt WE COULD NOT HAVE DONE THIS ALONE.
I also think it is relevant to underscore that this was a "peer facilitated" group situation; not something led by a professional psychologist who would, almost by definition, NOT be a group member. I have very strong feelings about this. When one "member" of the group is identified as THE "therapist" this sets up a group dynamic that can easily become problematic; that he/she is separate from and somehow ABOVE (and thus knows more and better than) the group participants. Such a dynamic may be acceptable in a couples therapy or counseling situation where an "objective third party" is needed. BUT in a "support group" setting, as I see it, it is ESSENTIAL that there NOT be a so called "objective observer".
In the case of the group I/we participated in, the group facilitation revolved between the member couples. The group met once every three weeks and usually followed a simple structure: The meeting began with a pot-luck dinner that gave the participants a time to socialize with one another in a non-structured way. This usually took up the first hour to hour and a half of the meeting. After cleanup, the group met more formally. It was up to the designated facilitating couple to determine precisely how this next phase of the meeting would shape up. Typically, it would begin with a group "check-in", with each participant taking several minutes to tell the group how they were feeling or what was "up" in their relationship. Afterward, if needed, individual couples might work with the group to "deal with" certain issues that were coming up in their relationship. This portion of the meeting could go on for another two to three hours. The last segment of the meeting was set aside to select a date, time, place and facilitating couple for the next meting.
I was VERY aware during these years that what we were doing was something that was DIRELY NEEDED within the "gay community". After we had been meeting for several years I suggested to the group participants that we in some way begin to document and formalize WHAT we were doing for the purpose of making the model available to other couples who wanted to create support groups of their own. HOWEVER, none of the other participants wanted to do this (time consuming, for one thing, and we all had jobs, relationships, lives to live, etc.) and I didn't want to do it alone. SO... unfortunately, no such documentation (let alone working model) was established.
My participation in the group ended with the death of my partner. It was the first death of a partner the group had to deal with and it was a trauma for all of us. I was asked to keep coming to the group and did for two or three meetings after David's death but, beyond that, I actually found being in the group as a widower MORE PAINFUL than supportive.
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) The trust is implicit that we go through these rough patches with as much love, tenderness, honesty, and willingness to listen to each other as we possibly can. 
